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Volume I, Issue I
Highway Signage Issues Dominate Kenai Roundtable
Click here for summarized version of this Roundtable discussion.
Representatives of 4 highway businesses on the Kenai Peninsula and 2 Dept. of Transportation (DOT) officials met by phone conference on May 20, 2004, to discuss issues relating to road signage in a roundtable sponsored by The MILEPOST. This roundtable was the first in a series of discussions with highway businesses in various regions of the state on a variety of tourism-related topics.
Participating in the roundtable were: Cheryle James, Wildman Towing Company, Cooper Landing; Paul Wiest, Trail Lake Lodge, Moose Pass; Jerry Dunn, Beluga Lookout RV Park, Kenai; Danny Seavey, Ididaride Dog Sled Tours, Seward; Rick Kauzlarich, DOT Right-of-Way Director; Paula Brault, Anchorage Right-of-Way agent; Kris Valencia, editor of The Milepost; and Marion Nelson, MILEPOST's Kenai field editor and moderator for the roundtable.
MARION: Let's start off with the obvious question: Is highway signage an issue, and do you hear complaints from tourists? Let's go to Jerry Dunn in Kenai.
JERRY: The comments that I have to make are based on a conversation I had a couple of years ago with DOT trying to get some road signage for my RV park. I called the DOT requesting to get some signage and was told they didn't allow signage with the city limits of Kenai or any other city I suppose. In my travels around the city, I'd noticed several signs within the city limits, one of them within a half-mile of me. I was told that since I'm in Old Town Kenai, and basically close to city center (if there is a city center in Kenai), they wouldn't allow me to have a roadside sign.
I'm in a place that's not the easiest place in the world to find, and it sure would be a tremendous help to me in my tourism business to be able to have a sign on the roadway helping people find my place. I was just kind of curious why other signage is allowed within the city limits, but they told me I couldn't have one.
MARION: Let's go to Danny Seavey off Old Exit Glacier Road with the IdidaRide tour business there, a very different situation.
DANNY: We've been here on Old Exit Glacier Road since back when that was the main route out to the glacier. Our signage on Old Exit Glacier Road was one of our best advertising tools. I think it was the #1 tool we had for attracting guests. Then they upgraded the road out to Exit Glacier [Herman Leirer Road], which is great for the tourists, but it's left us kind of out of the way.
Our main issue is that although we have our TODS [Tourist Oriented Directional Sign] on the Seward Highway, and another, very small [sign], on the new Exit Glacier Road, neither one is large enough to adequately display our name. They don't allow enough characters. Our name is IdidaRide Sled Dog Tours. IdidaRide Sled Dogs is all that fits [on the highway sign]. The smaller sign on the new Exit Glacier Road is just a symbol, what somebody at the DOT tried to draw as a dogsled. I'm a dog musher, and I can't tell what it is. The little symbol really isn't adequate [in size or recognition factor]. So it's not only very hard for guests to find us, it's not advertising clearly what we do.
It would be nice if we were allowed to put up another sign of the same size that includes our tour name. Of course, we'd love to be able to put 4' X 8' billboards up, but I don't think that's going to happen here.
MARION: Now we'll go to Paul in Moose Pass and hear what he has to say about how highway signage affects Moose Pass.
PAUL: There are really two issues. We get at least, on average, during the peak of the summer season---June, July, August---probably six motorists desperate for gasoline. This is our third season here. The first season, I always had a little gas on hand. I'd give them a gallon or two and send them on their way. But I soon realized, being a business owner, I'm going broke doing this. So I can't do that constantly. But you get people in here just ashen white in fright, and when you tell them that Seward's another 30 miles or Cooper Landing's another 16, that doesn't help them any.
MARION: And they don't leave thinking that Moose Pass is the greatest place probably. Or maybe they think you're heroes. I don't know.
PAUL: Well, it depends on if they get gas or not.
So we need signs on the road, from somewhere around Girdwood probably, that say "Next gas is X miles away," so people at least [know] to fill up at Girdwood, because that's really their last opportunity. That would help. That's a courtesy to tourists. People coming up from the Lower 48 are used to a gas station on every corner. And you'd be surprised the number of people that live right here in Alaska that we have this issue with. So I think we just need to alert people how far [it is] to the next gas station.
The second issue for us is that we have 3 restaurants in the area and no way for the highway traveler to be aware of that. Driving south [from Anchorage] you go through Girdwood, and there's really no opportunity for food again until you hit Summit Lake Lodge. Summit Lake Lodge has a DOT sign that has the food symbol (the knife and fork) 1,500 feet. They are very well exposed on the highway. I think there should be an additional sign there that says, "Next food 17 miles," and that 17 miles would apply to both Moose Pass and Cooper Landing. We're not asking for our names to be advertised, we just want people to know that hey, if you don't stop here, here's your next opportunity. And then on that same sign or in the same general vicinity, you could also have how far to the next gas station as well.
MARION: That allows me to segue to Cheryle James in Cooper Landing, who has certainly dealt with these services signage issues on both the Seward and the Sterling highways.
CHERYLE: Just last week we had two calls from people out at Summit Lake who were out of gas. They [both] happened to be AAA members, so AAA picked up the tab: it's a call out plus the price of the gas, so you're looking at probably $90 [in charges]. It would be really nice [to see signage] coming out of Seward, coming out of Sterling, again at Girdwood and then at the "Y." Especially southbound at the "Y", if they show gas in Cooper Landing and also going toward Moose Pass. Same thing with the [food and lodging icons]. So if you're going northbound and hit the "Y,"then at least you see the sign that you've got 50 more miles to Girdwood, and you could at least detourback to Cooper Landing to get gas.
MARION: And another part of that services sign for you would be the towing symbol.
CHERYLE: Yes, that would help too. All of the services---gas, food, lodging, repair, anything---customers or tourists need to know are out there. So any kind of service sign at those locations would be really great. Something that people should know too is that there are emergency services at Moose Pass and in Cooper Landing.
MARION: That takes us to the second question, and that is how are emergency services responded to in your areas?
CHERYLE: We have 7 volunteer EMTs and an ambulance [in Cooper Landing]. Moose Pass has 8 EMTs. They are "first responders": they can respond with their fire truck, but they do not have an ambulance for transport.
We go to Mile 58 of the Sterling Highway and from about Mile 35 to Ingram Creek (Mile 75) on the Seward Highway, so we respond clear into the pass. One thing that's really [necessary] is to make sure that DOT has their mile markers up.
The mile markers, signs on all the little creeks, anything that people can give us a landmark so that when we're out looking for somebody on the road, we can find them. Even with the towing, it's nice to have that.
One thing I've noticed is that nobody in the state that I know of uses "Route 1" or "Route 9." They say "the Sterling" or "the Seward Highway." Even the Troopers don't use Route 1 and Route 9. When they dispatch it's to the Seward or the Sterling highway. So you can always tell it's a tourist because they'll say, "Well, I'm on Route 9," and we all to sit here and say, "Now is that Seward or Sterling highway?" So if [the highway signage] would have "Route 9 Sterling Highway", that might help.
MARION: Kris, do we note that in The MILEPOST?
KRIS: What Cheryle said is true...I've noticed that our tourist readers always want the route numbers. We use the names of the highways more prominently in The MILEPOST, although I've made a point of using the route numbers as well in our editorial.
MARION: Paul, do you want to speak to the safety response or emergency response in the Moose Pass area?
PAUL: Just a few nights ago I came upon a moose calf that had been hit and killed [by a vehicle]. I called it in because the cow was still around, and she was kind of edgy, and I could just see another accident about to happen. It was somewhere north of the "Y", I wasn't sure what mile, and I just had to take a guess. It would have been handy to have those mile markers more prominent.
MARION: I was in Florida earlier this year and in Hawaii several years ago and I've spoken to someone from Texas about mile markers, so those are 3 states that I [know] have substantial mile markers I wish we could emulate. They are what I would describe as "beefy" mile markers. They are positioned in such a way that you can see them easily from the car window. You can easily read the numbers.
We are very dependent on these mile markers. Just about all of us identify things at Mile such-and-such, and emergency people identify where to go by the mile marker. I don't know that there is another state in the Union that still identifies locations by mileposts as consistently as Alaska.
Maybe we should give the DOT folks a chance to respond to all these things now, and then we'll probably want to take off with another round of responses from them. Rick since you're calling from Juneau, you're calling the farthest. We'll let you go first here.
RICK: Thanks. The deputy commissioner, John McKennan, called me this morning and asked me to participate in this [roundtable] because DOT's administration is very interested in what we can do to improve signage and traveler advisory. I wanted to let you folks know about a Web site that we have that details the types of traveler advisory signage that you may apply for: It's http://www.dot.state.ak.us/permits.
I'll first answer Beluga RV Park's question: Why is there a TOD sign in an area where I can't get one? The TOD signs are maybe about 10 years old now. They were started as a pilot project, and now they have finally been folded into DOT state regulations. There is a population limit to the TOD signs, so they're basically for rural areas. If we start getting a population of over 2,500 people, then we stop issuing permits for TOD signs. So what's happening in a lot of areas is that you'll see some TOD signs that had been permitted before the regulations went into effect. As we are doing projects, then we see about whether or not we will renew those TOD signs.
MARION: That's inconsistent because with Jerry's situation, his particular business was in place longer than the other business he was citing as an example of somebody who had a TOD sign. But the population certainly was well over 2,500 when the first one went in.
RICK: I don't know the particulars about the TOD signs that are existing, but I'm supposing that that individual applied for one before the regulations went into effect, got the TOD sign, and then when Jerry came to apply for one, that all of a sudden, he's facing the regulations. So that's the inconsistency there. We're very much aware of that.
JERRY: When did that regulation go into effect then? About the population limit?
PAULA: What I'm showing is that they were first effective in May of 1997, and they were amended in March of 2002.
RICK: As far as the size of the TOD signs, there was some adjustment to the size through this regulation process, and Paula, what are the sizes now?
PAULA: 90" X 18".
RICK: So these are standardized highway signs and there is only a certain amount of lettering that can go on those signs. That's why, in Danny's case [IdidaRide Sled Dog Tours] the 'Tours' part wouldn't have fit on there, so that's why it went down to IdidaRide Sled Dogs. The other sign that Danny was talking about, the one with the sled dog symbol, those are called "trailblazers." Those signs were an attempt to help the traveler go from the main TOD sign. The idea was that they would see the trailblazer [sign] and keep going down the road when there'd be a number of turns.
MARION: And, Rick, do you have to apply for those or do they just come along with the territory?
RICK: You would talk with your right-of-way agent when you make your applications and see whether or not those would be appropriate for your situation.
MARION: Can you still buy into the TOD sign program, provided you meet the criteria?
RICK: You can do an online application for a TOD sign, and if you meet the criteria, which is basically a business that is a tourist oriented, traveler oriented, type of business, then you can apply for a sign. The signage expense, the expense of the sign, is born by the business. You'd go to a private sign contractor to have the sign made.
MARION: What's the price of the permit?
PAULA: There's a $100 application [fee]. The first permit is for 5 years, and that's a $400 permit fee, and then every 5 years after that, there's a renewal fee of $300.
CHERYLE: How long does it take to get an application approved?
RICK: The online permit---if there's no complication---would be completed in about less than 60 days. Online is what has enabled us to make it go faster, but you can also go to the Anchorage office, located on Lake Hood, where you could actually sit down with a right-of-way agent and fill out an application.
PAULA: At the Soldotna Maintenance and Operations office, you go in there and see Amy Lacey. She can sit you down at a computer and help you do this there.
RICK: We've set it up so that at various computer stations at DOT offices, you can access the application. And there are people that can help you.
PAULA: You could also always reach us at 1-800-770-5263 [Southcentral Region].
MARION: For people in other parts of the state who want to access a local right-of-way person, they should call which regional office?
RICK: In the Fairbanks area, phone 1-800-475-2464 [Northern Region]. The 800 number for the Southeast DOT is 1-800-575-4540.
Besides the TOD signs, there are the recreational and cultural interest area (RECA) signs. There's also a new program we've started called Day Medical Clinic. If you have some type of an emergency medical clinic that's available to the public, then there is signage available. It has "medical clinic" and then points the traveler to the direction.
PAULA: And gives hours and days of operation.
RICK: This is a brand new program that was just started the first of the year. I think we have one application so far.
The other thing I want you to think about is what we call Tourist Informational Kiosks. These have not really been used at all around the state. We had a situation in the Glitter Gulch/Nenana Canyon area where there's an abundance of tourist-oriented businesses and there was the maximum amount of TODs allowed in a location. What are they, Paula?
PAULA: Six at an intersection.
RICK: What happened was there were more businesses than there were available TODS sites, so we are working with the businesses up there to construct a Tourist Information Kiosk. People can pull off [the highway], get out of their cars and then look to see what's available in the area, then make their plans. There'll be a map there to all the businesses. This is being managed by the local government up there.
So that's something that we haven't really seen around the state yet, but I think it has a really high potential for helping people find locations of businesses.
MARION: What about the gas, food, and those kinds of symbols/signage, for both the Sterling and the Seward near Girdwood and certainly at the "Y"? Is there any hope of making something like that happen in the very near future?
RICK: The right-of-way people put up TOD signs---that sort of thing. The signage that you're talking about is really a traffic function, and I know that the traffic engineer is aware of the need for this, and I will be talking to him about it.
MARION: How can we encourage it to happen... by writing letters, sending emails, making phone calls? How can we help this program along?
RICK: It would be really helpful for me to have that type of input so that I could show that there is a want and a need there. You could write me at my office, which is 3132 Channel Drive, Juneau, AK 99801. My e-mail is rick_kauzlarich@dot.state.ak.us.
I'm going to be contacting the people that are in the maintenance end of DOT and the traffic engineer and see if I can't get something moving on this.
PAUL: I think that would be fantastic. That's encouraging to hear, and I hear a certain amount of optimism in Rick's voice that leads me to believe that maybe something might happen. I think all we're asking is just for people to know that these options exist for them as they're driving down the highway.
MARION: And I might add that the people in Hope, who are not represented on the phone today, have some of these same issues as well. They have local responders, and they run around trying to help people with empty gas tanks, so having some signage at the Hope turnoff would be appropriate. There's food and lodging in Hope, but gas is not always available. With the draw of a lovely state park at the end of the road, Hope gets a lot of summer traffic, so the issue of gas availability is critical.
CHERYLE: The [Tourist Informational Kiosks] interest me. It would be nice---along with the signage---that you have one of those [kiosks] that would give some information about Hope at the Hope cutoff and at the "Y".
RICK: What we'd need to help the kiosk idea along is some type of community sponsorship, community government involvement. We really need the input from the public to make those kiosks work. The Glitter Gulch/Nenana Canyon kiosk that we're putting together is going to hopefully be sort of a template for how this will work in other parts of the state.
MARION: Rick, you're saying you need the local government involved in something like that. What can satisfy that requirement? They all have chambers. Is that good enough?
RICK: We're looking at anything that would be a representation of the community. It doesn't have to be a borough. It could be a chamber of commerce. It could be a community association.
CHERYLE: Rick, I'm a member of the Cooper Landing Chamber of Commerce, and we have had a discussion about trying to do an [informational] kiosk somewhere near Cooper Landing. We've really been talking a lot about a kiosk, so this will make everybody on the board happy, and you'll probably hear from us.
RICK: We've actually developed a design for the kiosk. We have a template for what a kiosk would look like, how that kiosk would be constructed, and all the design specifications. So the next step would be finding the location for it and somehow funding the kiosk. Somebody would [also have to] take responsibility for maintaining this kiosk once it was built.
MARION: What about an area like Danny's [IdidaRide Sled Dog Tours], that's just outside a community? There are a lot of businesses, but they don't have a chamber as such there.
DANNY: Because there are so many of us now that are off on the old road, that no longer have highway frontage, and we can't get adequate signage to direct tourists to our businesses, we've talked about building our own little kiosk at the head of Exit Glacier Road where it meets the Seward Highway. So if we could have the DOT help us with that in some way, that would be great.
MARION: I'm wondering if something like that would be applicable in Old Town Kenai where Jerry is located? Old Town Kenai is somewhat identified by the little brown historic signs along the highway, but actually finding it is not obvious once you're in town. Old Town features several historic buildings visitors want to see. Rick, can you address that?
RICK: We're open to whatever type of proposal somebody sends to us. In the Glitter Gulch/Nenana Canyon area [for example], we realized that there was a need for a kiosk, so we identified a location and developed the plans. We were stymied for a couple of days because we didn't have any governmental [and/or] community type of organization to manage it. The businesses were just gearing up for the summer season. [Once] they started talking amongst themselves, they were able to get that going.
MARION: For a kiosk location, does that have to be on public property or can it be on private property? What kind of approval process is there? Is there a limit to the number of businesses that can participate?
RICK: The Glitter Gulch/Nenana Canyon example is an actual highway pulloff. But we have lots of right of way that might avail itself to a kiosk location. In the Glitter Gulch area, we had the gravel pad, so that we had a good foundation for this area. We had to make sure that there was enough area for access; that RVs could pull in and out of there; and that we had adequate parking. The kiosk design itself was created [to] be expandable. So as long as the business was a traveler service type of business, then it would be allowed. The kiosk up at Glitter Gulch is an open-air structure [with] a slight roof to it. An architectural or [point-of-interest] feature there is a milepost that shows:, "Paris 4,000 miles, New York 3,000 miles, Fairbanks 75 miles," etc.
MARION: Would you, or could you, include features such as the historic Russian Orthodox Church in Old Town Kenai.?
RICK: One of the panels at Glitter Gulch/Nenana Canyon is an informational panel about Mt. McKinley/Denali and the Nenana River.
MARION: We all have incredible things to do, either with a building or with a geographic feature, in every area that we're speaking to today. We all have those things, those bits of information, that we'd love to see included in something like that. What do you think about that? Paul from Moose Pass, I think that would be quite a nice addition.
PAUL: Oh yes, I'm making notes like crazy here. I think that's something that the Moose Pass Chamber would be very interested in.
MARION: So Jerry, I'm sure the Kenai Chamber would support that, but also the Kenai Visitor Center could probably act as a government entity to help with that, at least support it. Probably the biggest problem would be where to put it.
RICK: That would be something that would be very important to nail down.
MARION: The Kenai Chamber and Visitor Center area might be the location for it: it would be easily seen. And for Soldotna and Anchor Point and all the rest of them, I can see where it could be very, very useful to all these communities, these smaller communities. And information that they would welcome for sure.
JERRY: Since I'm not able to have a TOD sign because of the population stipulations---even though Kenai is spread over such a wide area (there's not really a downtown Seward-type of area)---the kiosk would be a good second option for me. I think that would be a great idea. I would agree with you, we could get somebody, the visitor center or the chamber, I'm sure, who would be willing to help maintain it.
MARION: I would say that Sterling would be another really hot area that it would help immensely. Sterling is probably the fastest growing area on the peninsula. It would be ideal for [a kiosk].
RICK: I want to reemphasize that we have just developed the kiosk design. Before, we didn't have [the design] available, so this program really wasn't used. Now we have [the kiosk design] available, we have the specifications, and we'd be glad to provide that to anybody. I'm just looking at the Web site right now about qualifications. Basically, a local government, business group or chamber of commerce may apply for a permit.
MARION: OK. And you've given us that Web site to apply for that permit?
RICK: Right, it's http://www.dot.state.ak.us/permits. And when you go to that site, you'll see another little link that says, "Right of Way Home," and if you click on that, then that will take you into an area where you can look at right-of-way resources, and you can see descriptions about highway signs for the traveling public and that sort of thing. The other thing is that Paula is available to help anybody through this process.
MARION: Super. We have to touch one more time on the missing mileposts. What does it take to get them put back in where they are missing and do we have any hope of having these wonderful little beefy mile markers that I talked about earlier?
RICK: I will be talking to the traffic engineer about the mileposts, and once I get your e-mails and the transcript of this meeting, I will also being talking about the maintenance, to Maintenance, about those. We are aware that that is something that would be very helpful to the traveling public.
MARION: It's got to be a budget decision. Do we have any real hope of this happening? We all hope it will happen, but is there money to make this happen?
RICK: I don't know if there's any money for this, put it this way, identified at this moment. I can certainly see what I can do about finding some.
MARION: All right. That means that we need to visit with our local senators and representatives and encourage support for that.
KRIS: I just had a quick question for Rick because Marion brought up the wonderful mileposts that exist in the Lower 48. I know I've seen them, mostly on the interstates, which also have wonderful services signs. I was just wondering, Rick, is that because they receive more federal funds for that kind of thing?
RICK: The logo signs that you are talking about, that's what they are referred to: As you're driving along, you'll see a sign that says McDonald's, Burger King, food, that kind of stuff. They pay for those. We do have that sign---it's called the logo sign program---available in Alaska. A lot of roads in Alaska are just now starting to be upgraded. We're in a different development stage than the Lower 48 was or is. I know that Commissioner Barton is very concerned about making sure that there is adequate signage along the roads. We've had a Sign Task Force group working here at DOT, and that was one of the things that we were discussing. So I do know that it's on people's minds.
Because of the nature of our roads, though, there's not that many locations where that sign could be placed. Those are more a freeway-type of signage, and we have not ever had one person apply for those.
JERRY: Would I qualify to apply for something like that, Rick?
RICK: I don't think you would.
JERRY: But a restaurant inside the city limits could?
RICK: I don't think they would either. That's what I'm saying: The logo signs are more for freeway type of situations, for instance, north of Anchorage [on] the Glenn Highway there, which is a 4-lane divided type of road. But my reference was those logo signs mentioned in the Lower 48---we do have those available in Alaska, but we don't really have a lot of places to put them. We don't have any logo signs in Alaska as far as I know. These are the signs that say "McDonald's," "Burger King" Dairy Queen Next Exit" or whatever.
KRIS: I've been in a line of traffic where there's an RVer from out of state who looks about 75, and he's going 75 mph, and all of a sudden, he slams on his brakes to make a right-hand turn because we don't have [signage that announces the turnoff ahead of time]. It's really a safety issue. I know in the MILEPOST, at least when people read along, they can anticipate a business, but unless there are physical mileposts to watch for as they get closer---and you know, we use signs at creeks; we use all those things to orient people---it's not much help. So I'll write letters to whomever I need to write letters to. Just tell me.
RICK: If you address them to me, it would be helpful.
KRIS: OK. I will do that.
MARION: I would say that of all the folks we're talking to [here today], Cooper Landing is the premier example of that [safety issue]. The road is very curvy in there. 45mph is a pretty darn fast pace to go through Cooper Landing. Too fast, really, because as we all know, it's almost a death-defying act at certain times during the year. Rick, just in case you didn't know, if there's an accident there, the pileup on either side of that accident is so significant that certainly, many times, a helicopter will have to come in and extract the people who were in the accident. And of course, that takes that much longer. Cheryle and I both know of horrendous accidents and deaths that have happened there, so signage is extremely important. And what Kris is saying about the mile markers, that is one place where having them in very frequent locations would be really extremely important for safety reasons if no other.
CHERYLE: Another thought too in Cooper Landing is if and when the bypass ever happens, or they decide what to do with the road, then signage is going to be really crucial for us if the road goes up and over the bench, to let people know that town's down here, and this is where the services are.
RICK: You know, they have public meetings about these road projects. If you would attend those and ask those questions about the signage...
MARION: Oh she does, and we do.
RICK: Then that would help the traffic people that actually put up the signs plan for that sort of thing.
MARION: Cheryle, I'm sure you've talked about that at the highway meetings.
CHERYLE: Yes, and I'll be sure to at the next one I go to. I'll bring it up again.
MARION: Kris, back in your hands again.
KRIS: I want to thank you all for taking time out of your busy schedules to participatie.
We hope to have another roundtable in the fall. If you have any specific topics you want to discuss, we're more than willing to hear your ideas and build a roundtable around those topics. Thank you again.
Click here for summarized version of this Roundtable discussion.
Transcripts of the roundtable will be distributed by e-mail to The MILEPOST advertising partners and other businesses, the media and state agencies, and will also be available at www.themilepost.com/newsletter. Subsequent roundtables will focus on different regions along the highway system, addressing the problems of businesses in those specific areas.
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